We have seen many prominent names in these past years of people who espoused family values while thumping their Bibles. We would learn that these supposed family values were not applicable to the likes of John Edwards, Newt Gingrich, Mark Sanford, John Ensign and David Vitter. Of course duplicitous behavior crosses social lines, but the garbled connections have one thing in common: sin.
Beyond the search for tabloid redemption, we now have Rick Warren, Pastor of the Saddleback Church in Southern California, who implored his congregation for nine hundred thousand dollars when donations sagged during Christmas. According to Warren, his request did bring in 2.4 million dollars. That is quite a large amount of money for soul-saving. Even pastors lose sight of honorable values. Is this Warren’s idea of a ‘purpose-driven life’? Think of the thousands of communities across the nation who could have used a sliver of that money to build a small church or to keep their economically floundering churches alive.
I have a problem with Big Box churches. Having attended several I can say that they have great entertainment value. Some I attended seat a thousand or more at a time. The stages were replete with the best sound equipment, staging, orchestras and singers who could compete in America’s Got Talent. Yes, we were all on our feet singing praises, clapping hands and watching visuals on large screens. The show took up the majority of allotted church time and the message of spirituality got lost in the production. Maybe that’s why some fall off the righteous wagon. It’s the glitter factor and much of it comes from these Big Box churches. And what about my sins?
Look, I’m no saint. That’s why I like to go to church, so that I can be spiritually fed and leave there a better person, free of the shackles of my wrong-doings. But truth be told, there is something enticing about the glitter factor in churches. Beautiful women and men (seems they never use the homely ones) put on a show that has you dwelling on the star factor, and I don’t mean heavenly ones. And some pastors have charisma which could lead armies to fight for them. It is a dangerous magnetism.
Joel Olsteen tells us on TV that if we pray for wealth, it will be ours. Was he around for the recession? A Crystal Cathedral was built in California years ago. I wonder if God is drawn to crystal. Dobson has DVD’s on family values. But where are the messages about social injustice? Where are the messages about “husbands love your wives as Jesus loved the church”? Not much time to get those messages across when there is a production to be staged and money to be put in the baskets to pay the bills.
Give me a small church with a sweet choir and a strong message from a pastor or priest who holds me accountable for my actions. Give me a church that focuses on social injustice and leads by example with modesty, frugality and messages from God, not an entertainment sideshow. Big Box churches may be temples of doom. I think if God walked this earth, he would topple them all. Given the dire economic time in which we live, I find it appalling that Rick Warren sees fit to pick the pockets of the faithful in order to keep an ostentatious show alive. Keep your eyes on God because man will often fail to help you find a truly purpose-driven life.
—cher
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Tags: america s got talent, better person, Big Box churches, church time, clapping hands, David Vitter, doings, entertainment value, family values, great entertainment, hundred thousand, John Edwards, John Ensign, Mark Sanford, money, Newt Gingrich, orchestras, ostentacious churches, purpose driven life, Rick Warren, Saddleback, saddleback church, shackles, singing praises, sliver
Wow, Cher. Let me apologize ahead of time for writing a book on this one. Feel free to delete this if it is too long. (And may I say, you two have quite the range on topics!)
Time for some full disclosure here: in my former life, I was a programming pastor at a “big box” church. Not Rick Warren-big, but at 1,200 members we were in the top 2 or 3 percent of churches in the country. That meant we had a church budget of several million dollars. A lot of that money went toward running ministries, paying salaries, and paying fixed costs like heating/cooling, ongoing maintenance, and employee benefits like health care insurance. Plus, you’re right that the “show” takes money. Just building and maintaining a decent theatrical lighting system costs more than you would believe! Once you are that big, you are become a corporation. You are an ocean liner that is hard to turn.
I remember when we lost two senior pastors in two years and I had to help run the church with another pastor for a year and a half while they did a search for the next guy. We lost quite a few people who were consistent financial givers. We had to tighten the belt unbelievably. You had to get permission to buy paperclips. We had to ask for a year-end gift as Warren is doing, though I can’t imagine doing so in the media—in such a public way. We were going to have to lay people off (which we did). We were facing the elimination of programs/ministries for kids, couples, women, teens, men … all of which took funds and staff. Not to mention outreach programs for homeless, those in financial crisis, and in addiction recovery. Not all the money went for the show; a lot of it went to people.
I once met Rick Warren, before he was Mr. Purpose-Driven Life. He was a nice guy, but you could tell he was, well, “driven.” You can’t build something like that unless you are. Even though now I don’t agree with some of the positions of his ministry (i.e. gays and condoms), the guy I knew had integrity. His desire is to help people and not be a star. Doesn’t mean he’s perfect. But he has given boat loads of money to the homeless in SoCal and to fight AIDS in Africa. Also, I wouldn’t lump him and Osteen in the same boat. Way different dudes and ministries. Osteen’s ministry has done some charity work in Houston, but percentage-wise, they haven’t given very much away at all. That’s like saying George W. Bush and Obama are exactly the same… both politicians. Well, yes, and no.
In the end, after about 15 years, I got out. I wouldn’t say that I lost my faith, but my faith needed changing. That was part of my move to Pittsburgh. I got involved as a volunteer with a beautifully weird little church on the South Side that was building community among counter culture kids, college students, and general misfits there. Now, we have started a little house church in Lawrenceville, trying to build community and explore God together. No desire to build it. No proselytizing. No preaching. Just connecting through our brokenness and need for community. Then trying to help out in the community. Generally, the older I get, the less sure I am of what I believe, but the more faith I have… if that makes sense. I’m okay with that. Like you, though, I am done with the “big box”church.
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What I would give to have written this blog myself. You took the words out of my mouth as these pastors have taken the money out of the pockets of the faithful. Too much faith, too little common sense. What are people thinking when they give and give and give in order to get? The idea of our generosity coming back twofold has been ingrained in us for decades and I have yet to see anyone who has given generously become wealthier. If anything they’ve become poorer yet they contine to line the pockets of these charismatic charletons.
Good post. Now you’ve got me started all over again.
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Carpetbagger,
You have given us a multitude of insights, and I so appreciate you filling in the blanks. I am glad to learn that Rick Warren’s ministry has provided outreach to the poor, unlike Olsteen, which you aptly pointed out. My fear about Rick Warren is that he has developed “star” power, which makes it easy to take your eyes off the Word and onto the man. He did some interviews on national news networks during the presidential campaign. That was a turn-off for me.
I attended a church once in which a Congressman was a member. Every so often, the Pastor would parade him to the front of the sanctuary and ask us to pray for him and his campaign. This individual has POWER in the U.S. government. I simply found it distasteful that, in essence, the Pastor was motivating his congregation to vote on this guy’s platform. Separation of church and state? I know this is done all the time, but I don’t have to like it.
I am very humbled by what you are doing in your community, and I honor that as putting the spirit of God into action. “… the older I get, the less sure I am of what I believe, but the more faith I have.” That is a powerful statement and I concur with it completely.
Carpetbagger, you touched my soul with you thoughts. You are a blessing, not just to us, but in all you are doing. God Speed.
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Gloria Kelley,
It is true that there are many charletons out there. I once investigated one in my former career. He was one of the most arrogant people I had ever met. He knew that I knew, and he glared at me in a way that conjured up total evil. He lived in absolute wealth from tithes of an unsuspecting congregation and was also involved in some untoward activities.
We need to be discerning when choosing a church and a pastor.
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And just to clarify… Warren is not a “Word of Faith” preacher like Osteen. Word of Faith preachers say, “Give and God will make you successful.” Those guys are out there, and it’s a lie from the pit of hell. It is manipulation, pure and simple.
Warren and most of the non-charismatic “big box” churches (Warren is actually Southern Baptist, although the church doesn’t include that much) say “Give because it’s the right thing to do” or “Give to be a part of something bigger than yourselves” or “Give because the Bible says ‘it is better to give than to receive.’” I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. It is a way of doing church, but it is no longer for me. I could say that all that money should be used elsewhere, but that would be my opinion. I could say the same thing about any organization. At the same time, I could show you people in Rick’s church that would say that their lives have been turned around, their marriages saved, addictions broken, etc. by some of that money. Hard to argue with that.
I suppose there are people at Osteen’s church that would say the same. But, ewwww.
Anyway, for all my verbosity, I’m not sure I was clear on this point.
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Last time, I promise. I totally agree with the political stuff. One of the biggest things that turned me off to evangelical Christianity was its hand-in-glove relationship with right-wing politics. Luckily, my church made a conscious effort to avoid anything political because we didn’t want to be a church only for one party.
But the hypocrisy I saw of people being avidly anti-abortion and anti-gay, while fully supporting war and corporate greed and ignoring all other facets of social justice made me crazy. I also thought it was diplorable that Warren injected himself into the political process. It did absolutely no good. And I think he paid a steep price for it… as seen by his current drop off in support.
Anyway, thanks for your kind words, Cher.
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Carpetbagger,
You are welcome here anytime and to say as much as you want. So much of blogging is about learning from others and I certainly appreciate that in you.
We agree on the interjection of politics into the church, and I am speaking regarding evangelical Christians. But I was raised Catholic and we know the issues of politics there as well. Since Rick Warren is in the news, I am focusing on him today. For me at least, he has lost credibility and I look at him askance, wanting to believe in his integrity but not quite getting there. Maybe there is just too much hypocrisy in organized religion. You cannot leave out entire segments of our population for the sake of dogma or pandering.
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“Anyone that claims to know the will of God is a fool or a con.”
Bluz 3:16
Sadly, so many of the Big Box preachers are both.
The ground rules at ‘Bagger’s Pittsburgh church should be enforced in all churches.
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bluzdude,
I think I would like to attend ‘Bagger’s church.
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These preachers preach redemption without effort, they preach wealth without hard work, they preach success without knowledge. Since when did the Old Testament become so unpopular and the goofy, stupid New Age Bible crap become so popular? Probably since Americans became so entranced with the idea of buying what they want on credit cards not worrying about how they will pay for it, letting teachers raise their children, and complaining about everything without ever doing anything themselves.
A little more fire and brimstone and a little less warm words and hugs, please.
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Harrison,
There is a lot of merit in what you say. We have become a feel-good nation. Religion is not just about warm hugs; it is about being true to the precepts and being accountable. We are called upon to do many things in practicing faith, and much of it may not be easy. Still, it is commanded that we do so.
And your reference to the materialism of this society is indicative of our lack of practicing faith as well as, perhaps, a plethora of warm-huggy preachers who have forgotten that one of the attributes of God listed in the Bible is Anger.
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The money/poverty issue has been around for centuries. In 13th C, St Francis of Assisi invented the rule of poverty and eventually got himself into trouble with the pope by insisting on poverty for the followers of Christ – although it’s much more complicated than that, I know.
Seems there are always two camps on this; those like St. Francis who want more down-to-earth religion without all the fancy trappings and those who want to clothe the message in the trappings of wealth (including themselves).
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ChrisJ,
Well said. You have reminded me of that old line about “the more things change, the more they stay the same.”
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Wow Cher, this is one of your best posts. You really summed up my problem with big box churches. So many are appealing to people because they give that “I’m OK, you’re OK and God love you no matter what” message. In truth, we’re not all OK and even if God will forgive us we need to do our best to make amends to those we sin against and strive to avoid these sins in the future. It’s not easy to become a more Christ-like person, so many pastors gloss over just how difficult it is to follow that path rather than telling it like it is.
When we lived in Nashville, our small church partnered with other small churches to provide a clinic for the working poor. On a shoe-string budget they provided care for hundreds, but they could have provided for thousands if the mega churches got involved. The mega churches said we should be focus more on converting people and therefore “saving souls” rather than trying to “heal the earthly flesh.” How sad, plus what better way to make people want to be Christians than to reach out to those suffering.
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Tina T,
Your remarks are so perceptive about what is wrong with today’s churches, particularly Big Box, mega-churches. Did those churches forget about “the eye of the needle”? Let the politicians haggle over health care for the poor. Let them haggle over those who need food stamps in order to feed their children. Those of faith should never doubt where their priorities lie.
What your small church did, along with others which helped, was indeed to reach out to help the poor. In so doing you also fed their souls. I’m sure they never forgot, and you were able to sow mustard seeds. That is the intent of FAITH, not selling glitz with glam while people hunger.
And lest we forget, forgiveness cannot be purchased.
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Let’s all jump on the bandwagon of hate! If only Pastor Rick could please absolutely every one in every way – I know you guys would be happy-right? Or could I be wrong? Now tell me what I said wrong…
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I alwas wonder – preachers or politicians – who preach about the poor but are living large themselves.
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Rebecca,
I am sure that Rick Warren has done a lot of good things, spiritually, along the way for many people. I do not “hate” him, I just do not like the presentation in grandiose ways. It is my opinion—and just an opinion, that faith, salvation and spreading God’s word does not need to be an orchestrated glamorous show. Imagine how much more good he could do by using a lot of that wealth as seed money for building smaller churches in many communities.
Some pastors are preaching from their homes, coffee shops or just reaching out in communities and letting THE WORD be shown through a quiet love. It is not about Rick Warren “pleasing everyone.” It is about pleasing God.
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I’m not a fan of big boxed, small boxed or any boxed church. Although, many do a lot of great things for the community, they just don’t seem like a place to really connect with a higher power or god, or even just a deeper understanding of spirituality….at least for me. But that’s another discussion for another time and place.
Yes, how come all these people don’t understand it’s a show and a scam! I mean 2.4 million dollars!! For what?!!
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Harrison,
I agree that “living large” is neither good for preachers nor politicians. We do not expect them to live in squalor, but modest living by both sends a more credible message.
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One of The Guys,
Some people do need a church for fellowship and that’s fine with me. But the Big Box churches have gone over the top and some have become cult-like. That’s scary to me.
Years ago when I first watched Jim and Tammy Baker on TV, I knew something was amiss. And it was. As years went on and I learned more about Tammy Baker, I came to believe that she was a woman of deep faith. Together, though, they somehow got side-tracked.
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Reading this post brought to mind the documentary “Jesus Camp,” which scared the bejesus out of me (if you’ll pardon the pun). I think big groups of people always end up off-track, no matter how pure their intentions were when they began to gather together.
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Tamara,
I think big groups splinter off into cliques anyway and often do veer off track. Intentions are good, but action is better.
Good hearing from you, Tamara!
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Your lack of understanding how churches work and you undermining anti-God slant towards RW is really bad and for that I pity you. In this I will attempt to enlighten you and see if you have any common decency left towards humanity.
The request only went out to church members – we don’t want your money, if its that precious to you keep it. Members decided if they wanted to “invest” in this or not. In that letter he listed the charities that this money would go to.
Saddleback is really 4,000 little churches called home fellowships – that become a church when they meet together on weekend for fellowship.
RK already gave all of his money away from his book sales and paid back saddleback his whole salary for the last 30 years (this is known and tracked on the internet). I think that his yearly salary is one dollar. He has given his children pretty much the remainder of his fortune (book sales mostly).
If I remember right RK donated the money to charities for the poor in developing countries. There was a lot of money to donate so many charities could have benefited (its known that in 2004 he donated 14 million)
At this moment Saddleback is attempting to put together a team to go to Haiti and help out with logistics for things that they Haiti’s need like food, water, shelter, etc. And yes this weekend RK will probably ask for donations for this and you don’t have to donate.
So now that you know all of this what’s your real beef with him? Or are you going to continue to give false witness and drag down a man and his ministry that actually helping people?
http://www.rd.com/your-america.....18935.html
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Mike,
Do not pity me. I am quite fine with my faith and “It Is Well With My Soul.”
It is admirable that you are helping to put a team together for Haiti. Our little church was in the Dominican Republic several years ago building a much needed church. If you take all that money you put into your stage shows from tithes, would God not be better served if the money went to build 10,000 churches rather than to glamorize your productions? You don’t answer to me. I am only a person with my rightful ability to have opinions. Think more about what Jesus would do, not me.
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Ok,
I am not sure what you mean by “stage shows”. What glamour is at Saddleback? Have you ever even been there or seen this? We were in high school Gymnasiums for 15 years before we got the property. We invested in it. The buildings there are also for our children and other fellowships so they have a home. Are you saying that they are not entitled to there own building or to be kept out from the cold too? And while on that subject who’s to say we haven’t already started 10,000 little churches? The building (which is an average church building at best) was put together and maintained by volunteers (of all different kinds) which keep the costs associated way down.
So I am assuming that you are conceding that you got something’s wrong in what you said about RK above? Don’t take my word check it because I think that you should clarify some remarks that you made as they were wrong.
I do think WWJD, that’s why I responded and I feel that my response was on the mark.
The support from Saddleback to Haiti will probably be to the Baptist churches there and whomever else needs it. I am not a part of that, I am one of those that call this my home church and I don’t think that RK has been portrayed correctly, at least on this issue and as stated it’s easily verifiable. I would appreciate retraction or at least a re-clarification of you original point now that this info has been provided. I think that’s fair, easily verifiable and as you say its WWJD. – right?
I agree that Crystal Cathedral is a little too much, in the 1980’s when they were doing that some very senior members of the church quit in protest. Chuck Smith in CM is also another fine example of big churches that work. Small churches are great – been to many and I have a few pastor friend that work them. But big churches can get things done. A little church can’t get things done – I know that when the Tsunami hit in 2004 Saddle back had a $1.1 million offering that Sunday that went straight to Thailand. That was followed up by 3 cargo planes loaded with stuff (water, medicine, blankets, diapers, etc) and a plane full of volunteers (doctors, dentist, nurses, college kids, etc) that landed and helped out for months. Stuff like that do not make the news. Small churches can’t do stuff like that but there are many small churches that partner with saddleback
If you’re in area and want to attend just show up, ask around and see for yourself. There’s nothing here that’s as you portray it to be. That plea was for people of the church and for people that are hurting that the church helps out. And if you or your readers are hurting and need help Saddleback can help with a job, food or shelter or what ever
Please reconsider what you said
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Mike,
First of all, I will not do a retraction of my sentiments. If you look at the top of our Home Page you may notice that this is an OPINION blog. We have never represented ourselves as news media.
The initial post stated that in these dire economic times, I found it a bit over the top to request such a large sum of money from this congregation. It has been all over the NEWS media, or have you not checked there?
Your responses to me have not been Christ-like. You are defending a man, one whom I do not hate but with whom I disagree on this issue. Christians defend Christ. That is one problem with Big Box churches. Your very sentiments show that you are defending Rick Warren, not Christ. I may love the man as my brother in Christ, but I am not obligated by the Bible to love his actions. Is there no room in your church for disagreement? You are being quite disagreeable when you say ‘you pity me.’ I will pray for you on that one.
Furthermore, you may want to clarify Pastor Warren’s stance on Gays. Are they not also God’s children? I refer you to this link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....82480.html
In addition, I stated in my post that I prefer a small church with a sweet choir, rather than an orchestra, lighting and a stage. That is my preference. You claim Saddleback is not like that. I would challenge readers to visit You Tube and look up two videos:
1. Saddleback Church—Stage Lights
2. Marvelous King by Eric Lige (Saddleback Praise)
Finally, I do not wish to “show up” at your church. It is all over the Internet should anyone care to see it. My preference is for a small community church. That is where I believe the churches should be. It used to be that way. They were an integral part of neighborhoods, knowing the names, needs and problems of individuals. I am sure there is a place for your style of church. Just do not attempt to foist it on me. Do you think California is the only place with Big Box churches? I have attended several right here where I live. They are not for me. I also think you should read the various comments posted here. We encourage people to speak their minds. Do you, or are you above that?
As to your demand for a retraction, I would remind you that the Bible tells us to settle our disagreements outside courts of law. I take your demand as a threat. WWJD?
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oooooo mike, wow you don’t sound so friendly, speaking from a reader who wandered into your comments.
Just one question to you Cher sweets -
does Jesus not say “go amongst the beggars, the poor and the downtrodden and there you will find me.” ?
Helloooo MIKE – Do You Remember that one my brother ?
also, was it not true that the followers of Jesus were warned about False Prophets and Fattening Golden Idols Above the Word/Love of God ?
have I missed something in the goodbook ? or is this the Rick Warren Version ? sorry butterah being an old downhome style christian woman, I just stick to the gnostic gospels and the Jerusalem Bible. I like to keep it original.
none of that “New” testament jazz for me kids. I’ll take my funk uncut thank you very much.
Now lets all sing – “give me that old tyme religion it’s good enough for me”.
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RE—A BadGalSays,
What cogent points from a very GOOD GAL! RE is one of the most intelligent people I have had the good fortune to know. She has a heart of FAITH and follows that by reaching out and raising awareness of those less fortunate that we. Faith is an action word.
To Mike:
Upon receiving your two-page tome of rants after my last (and final) comment to you, I have decided to SPAM you, something I have never done to a commenter before. I would suggest that if you have so much to say, and so much hatred to spew, you get your own blog. This is my venue. This was my decision.
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Comments to this post are now closed. Moving on…..
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